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quizzical
Progressive Quebec?

not so much. and pretty much hypocritical across the board.

what's with not allowing?Inuit children in care to speak their own language and get punished if they do?

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Quebec currently has a right-of-center government.? A lot of the Western provinces have reactionary governments, too. It was that reactionary government that is insisting on not allowing Inuit kids to speak their language-that isn't Quebec Solidaire's fault.

quizzical

did i?say anything about QS?

i'm pissed at the citizens period. scream about French language rights and cultural destruction and what do they allow? destruction of language on top of abuse.?

?

swallow

What's up is that an agency in Montreal has a bad policy on Indigenous children, as do many agencies in many provinces.

The Queec Human Rights Commission is investigating.?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

quizzical wrote:

did i?say anything about QS?

i'm pissed at the citizens period. scream about French language rights and cultural destruction and what do they allow? destruction of language on top of abuse.?

?

If you were just raising this issue, it would be one thing.? Your phrasing implied that this proves that there's nothing progressive in Quebec.? Also, you can't assume that francophones who have fought to preserve French language and culture against the perpetual challenge it is under from Anglo-Canadian/Anglo-American cultural imperialism are collectively ok with what's being done to Inuit kids here.? It obviously goes without saying that a lot of them are outraged about this and protesting against it.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

swallow wrote:

What's up is that an agency in Montreal has a bad policy on Indigenous children, as do many agencies in many provinces.

The Quebec Human Rights Commission is investigating.?

Thanks for the elaboration and context on this, swallow.

JKR

I've lived in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and, Quebec, and I consider Quebec to clearly be the most progressive province. This is how I would rate them:

  1. Quebec
  2. Ontario
  3. BC
  4. Manitoba
  5. Saskatchewan
  6. Alberta

quizzical

swallow wrote:

What's up is that an agency in Montreal has a bad policy on Indigenous children, as do many agencies in many provinces.

The Queec Human Rights Commission is investigating.?

nope doesn't wash. this a province who fought for and knows language rights and cultural extinction. look at the protests going on for ON franco community.

am so done with claims QC is progressive in any way. it's a lie or there wouldn't be a far right government even.

lagatta4

Many people here are shocked about the denial of the Inuit kids' right to speak their own language among themselves. Sadly many agencies, here and elsewhere, are clueless about issues such as cultural genocide. It is not specific to Québec. I think I was the person who raised the issue here, by the way.

Not excusing Legault, but Ford for one has proven far more reactionary so far.

?

สูตรบาคาร่า
pietro_bcc

When was the last progressive Quebec government? Honest question.

If Quebec is so much more progressive than the rest of Canada, then why did only 16% of Quebecers vote for a progressive party in the last election? Why did they vote for the most major right wing party, the CAQ?

quizzical

lagatta respectfully disagree when you say "elsewhere " and "clueless " even AB understands cultural extinction and associations would not be doing.

imv this is just part of QC stealing hydro from FNs and Inuit, and the citizens thinking it's all good. i?could list a whack of other less than progressive activities condoned by Quebecers too.

?

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

pietro_bcc wrote:

When was the last progressive Quebec government? Honest question.

If Quebec is so much more progressive than the rest of Canada, then why did only 16% of Quebecers vote for a progressive party in the last election? Why did they vote for the most major right wing party, the CAQ?

The last progressive Quebec government was clearly the first PQ government.? The PQ became a right-wing party on most issues after the 1980 referendum, when Rene Levesque decided that Quebec public employees needed to be punished for the landslide defeat of sovereignty-association, even though the referendum would have lost badly even if those unions had supported the "Oui" side.? The only one before that was the "Quiet Revolution" PLQ government of Jean Lesage from 1961-66.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

quizzical wrote:

lagatta respectfully disagree when you say "elsewhere " and "clueless " even AB understands cultural extinction and associations would not be doing.

imv this is just part of QC stealing hydro from FNs and Inuit, and the citizens thinking it's all good. i?could list a whack of other less than progressive activities condoned by Quebecers too.

?

?

All of which happens in every Western province.? What, exactly, is the point of starting a thread just to attack Quebec?? Yes, this ruling is a horrible thing(and I think it can be overruled by the Charter-there's no way the "notwithstanding" clause would protect whichever agency did this), but no, it doesn't mean that Quebec doesn't have a strong progressive movement.

Quebec's left has been subjected to the same factors as the left everywhere else(the relentlessness of neoliberalism and "market forces"), and has, in addition, been weakened by the fact that a large sector of the left stayed with the PQ out of a basically sovereigntist orientation-not in itself an illegitimate thing, given the longstanding hostility of anglophones to the very idea that francophone culture should survive at all-and that orientation kept(and continues to keep, to some degree)a large part of the Quebec left supporting the PQ even though the PQ is no longer, in any sense at all, a party of even mildly left-of-center politics.

Quebec has a strong left, it simply hasn't had an effective electoral expression for a long time.? This particular situation does not justify the total dismissal of Quebec's left tradition.

quizzical

oh there's several justifying my position this is the straw.

pretty thin gruel on the proof of progressive btw.

swallow

Ken Burch wrote:

All of which happens in every Western province.? What, exactly, is the point of starting a thread just to attack Quebec?? Yes, this ruling is a horrible thing(and I think it can be overruled by the Charter-there's no way the "notwithstanding" clause would protect whichever agency did this), but no, it doesn't mean that Quebec doesn't have a strong progressive movement

What ruling?

Quote:
Quebec's left has been subjected to the same factors as the left everywhere else(the relentlessness of neoliberalism and "market forces"), and has, in addition, been weakened by the fact that a large sector of the left stayed with the PQ out of a basically sovereigntist orientation-not in itself an illegitimate thing, given the longstanding hostility of anglophones to the very idea that francophone culture should survive at all-and that orientation kept(and continues to keep, to some degree)a large part of the Quebec left supporting the PQ even though the PQ is no longer, in any sense at all, a party of even mildly left-of-center politics.

Quebec has a strong left, it simply hasn't had an effective electoral expression for a long time.? This particular situation does not justify the total dismissal of Quebec's left tradition.

What Anglo hostility? Most?anglos entirely accept that Quebec is a Frenchspeaking province. The exceptions are old, boring, and frankly, irrelevant. And outside Montreal’s West Island, almost non-existent.?

Unionist

Thanks for trying to insert some facts into this thread, swallow.

quizzical

so you all are blaming "relentless neoliberalism" for your allowing cultural genocide and abuse of Inuit children?

alrighty....

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

OK...not a ruling, I got that wrong, a policy-the policy by one institution in Quebec barring Inuit kids from speaking in their own language.

And what else is it but Anglo hostility to keep demanding that all remaining sovereigntists make some sort of formal recantation of the idea of sovereignty, rather than letting it be enough that sovereigntism is dying out on its own?? Or to keep acting as though the francophones who embraced sovereigntism back when it was still a going concern were always making a big deal over nothing?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

quizzical wrote:

so you all are blaming "relentless neoliberalism" for your allowing cultural genocide and abuse of Inuit children?

alrighty....

Of course not.? I blame whichever institution it was in Quebec that made the decision to impose this.? Obviously, the Left in Quebec is fighting in support of the Inuit kids and against cultural genocide with exactly the same passion people on the left in B.C. or the Prairies or Ontario or the Maritimes fight for FN peoples there.

You are not entitled to act as though you are in solidarity with FN people and nobody in Quebec is.? And there's no reason to start a thread for the sole purpose of baiting one area.

quizzical

not baiting just pissed and this the final straw with the whole QC is above reproach when everyone from there or here even can bash AB, SK and ON with impunity for not being...

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p

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I don't think anybody actually SAID Quebec is above reproach.? Quebec politics have constantly been critiqued on this board.? The difference, however is that there is nothing in AB, SK or ON politics that is remotely comparable to Quebec Solidaire in terms of potential effectiveness as a Left project of any sort. ?

And if AB, SK, and ON have been unfairly maligned-what case would you make that those places are significantly more progressive than they've been characterized on this board, btw?-how does trash-talking the Quebec left for the sake of trash-talking the Quebec left do anything to effectively combat that?? How does implying that the Quebec left doesn't care about a situation-what's being done to the Inuit kids, in this case-when you have no way of knowing for sure that they don't-lead to people taking a different view of the political situation and possibilities in the places you listed there?

In Alberta, there is an NDP government, but it is at war with the NDP in the rest of the country over pipelines and the war it started over that is never going to lead to that party taking votes away from the Alberta right wing.? Notley will be an ex-premier, and possibly an ex-MLA, by summer.? There are some good activists there, and I salute them, but they are fighting losing battles.

In Ontario, the NDP is the official opposition, but has been totally ineffective in fighting the Ford government so far and has already managed to do what should have been the impossible and fall behind the Ontario Liberals in the polls.? I wish the Ontario activist left well, but so does everybody else here including the Quebec activist left as far as I know.? Nobody is disrespecting Ontario activists to my knowledge.?

In Saskatchewan, the SNDP is leading in the polls, but they could still turn victory in defeat and they've spent most of their years in opposition doing all they can to dismantle activist culture in that province, falsely blaming the activists for losses that were caused solely by the incompetence and bloodyminded stubbornness of the SNDP right wing.? Good luck to the activists there.

Don't you have better things to do than to lash out at people here for the SAKE of lashing out at them?

quizzical

oh piss off ken.

why dont you go and say shit like this to the person who started the Avi Lewis Rachel Notley? thread or the no damn difference thread? both are bs baiting threads by your criteria.

seriously your either picking at me or pondering for our perceptions and posts. do you have an issue with women who are pissed and sick of the shit?

how dare you ask if i have anything better to do.?

just your attitude about how dare i critique QCs actions says it all imv.

voice of the damned

From my years following Canadian politics, I'd say that romanticization of Quebec by activists in the ROC was mostly a tendency among the boomer generation, the people who came of age politically during the Quiet Revolution and the first-term of Rene Levesque's government. It was shaken somewhat, though not mortally, by the support, including among the supposedly progressive PQ, for free-trade in the '88 election(that whole "Letters to a Quebecois friend" soul-searching by anglo nationalists.)

But it limped along a bit for a couple of more decades, until now, when?I think the view, at least among the younger progressives, is almost the opposite. In the 2015 election, it was not at all uncommon to hear stuff like "Well, if the NDP keeps pushing multiculturalism, it's really gonna hurt them in Quebec", taking for granted that Quebec was the least interested of any province in accomadating cultural minorities. Basically, the same view that people used to have?of Alberta.

As for QS itself, yeah, they're probably more progressive than any NDP in Canada right now, but they're also a mere third-party. We'll pass judgement once they have actually formed government.

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WWWTT

I still find Quebec politics confusing. I’m sure now language is central in creating this confusion. ?

Language and culture is a huge part of colonial imperialism (if not everything!)

I think lots of people, regardless if they are socialists progressives tradition conservatives liberals or whatever category or non label we have, forget that language culture food music beliefs etc etc have been impacted by colonial imperialism.?

I believe when people forget this, it leads to problems?

voice of the damned

As for the advisiability of this thread, I agree that any claims of Quebec being especially progressive are looking rather laughable right about now. But I'm?not sure we need to be starting an out-of-the-blue thread about it(or, indeed, about the shortcomings of any one province). It kinda makes the forum look like a regionalist?rant in a donut shop(which I suppose does have the?quality of being quintessentially Canadian).

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

quizzical wrote:

did i?say anything about QS?

i'm pissed at the citizens period. scream about French language rights and cultural destruction and what do they allow? destruction of language on top of abuse.?

?

Its tiring because I have seen it all week these oil pimp Albertans trashing Quebec and the language that is spoken here,

We get it.. Albertans hate Quebec and quite frankly its a mutual feeling.

pietro_bcc

Admittedly by those arguing that Quebec is progressive, the last progressive Quebec government was in 1976, 42 years ago. How can you argue that a people who haven't voted for a progressive government in 42 years are progressive?

There are definitely some progressive aspects of Quebec (cheap daycare, cheap tuition, publicly owned electric utility.)? At the same time though we have Quebec that will soon be the only province that bans certain minorities from having certain jobs in the civil service. Quebec's political parties (including the beloved Quebec Solidaire) have twisted themselves into a knot to argue that banning religious minorities from certain jobs is the progressive position, in reality its far right bigotry that you would expect from Alabama. Racist nonsense that will be the bullets in the gun of the next Alexandre Bissonnette.

But I'm sorry, pointing out the laws that Quebecers voted for in the last election is "Quebec bashing".

lagatta4

Culture and language can be expressions of cultural imperialism, or of resistance to steamrollers of the former.

Quizzical's condemnation of Québécois as a people of the racist actions of a social agency is extremely offensive; many people here have spoken out against that. Unfortunately, racism and cultural genocide against indigenous peoples is found throughout the Americas and beyond. Yes, of course it must be fought. I've been involved in that for a very long time, including support to Oka in 1990.

We have to deal with Legault; I suspect you have your own reactionary scum to deal with - not many progressive governments anywhere in the Canadian state now.

This is an extremely offensive thread and reminds me of rants by Galganov or the Montreal Suburban.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I recently spent a year in Montreal, which is far too short to make any sweeping comments. But two examples come to mind. First the employee rights in Quebec are not just legally better than elsewhere, but the bureaucracy actually actively stands behind them.? On the other side recycling was almost non-existent, most garbage seems to end up in the same place (even if it seperated initially).?

So whether a place is more progressive than other places really depends on what policies you value.

quizzical

look i am sensitive to this abuse of stopping people from speaking their language.

my dad spoke nothing but French until school age. he was put in a Anglo Catholic school where it was beaten out of him. today he can't speak or understand French and has a panic attack when people do.?

his family in Cape Breton speak French and shun him for not except his mom. it doesn't make for pleasant interactions on both sides. i don't speak but a smattering my daughter thanks to French emerson schools speaks it.

we as a family are still trying to cope with language and thus cultural extinction. but it's pretty hard for dad as you can imagine trying to interact with your family while the language they speak puts you into a PTSD state.

and here you all are bent out of shape over me starting this thread and not about what's going on.

how this will play out on these poor children and their family relationships is to terrible for me to tolerate.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i have never looked at electoral victory as the measure of progressive. anti-capitalistic governments have not been a possibility in canada for as long as i've been alive. electoral politics, party politics in my experience divides people. that is how the status quo remains in power. by keeping people polarized. as opposed to coming together to resolve issues.

..my measuring stick has always been the level of struggle..which you can see clearly in what i post to this board. this very moment you can see the clear difference between the response to right wing governments of ontario and quebec. the large and recent demonstrations in que by coalitions coming together and calling for just transition. in comparison to what? coming out of ont. on top of this the que coalitions have embraced indigenous rights and said no trans mountain pipeline. this is a perspective that is looking at the larger picture and understanding how we must not stay divided if we want things to improve.? ? ?

..i'd also like to point to some of the stuff i posted in the qs thread. the dialogue going on in the party to continue organizing with the mass movements and not just focusing on the parliamentary side which isolates it from the people. this is again looking at the larger picture and acknowledging how to get to a better place. ?

lagatta4

That is terrible, quizzical. I really don't understand why you think I am indifferent towards the cultural genocide of Indigenous peoples, when I was the one who brought up the "youth protection" story in the first place.

I'd never pretend to be Indigenous, but I do have Indigenous relatives, including Inuit relatives, as my youngest uncle maried an Inuk lady. And one of the daughters (my first cousins) had an Ojibway spouse, and they have a "pan-Indigenous" son (quite a bright lad, if I may get out my older relative's bragging rights).? And I've long been involved in such issues, from James Bay days as a matter of fact, when I was scarcely an adult.

I agree that most of the "progressive nature" of Québec derives not from governments but from the militant labour and social movements, including Bread and Roses and the World March of women. And of course les carrés rouges. The latter two movements (and some longstanding left groups) converged to form Québec solidaire. Yes, the PQ can't really be described as progressive any more, but it does count some progressive figures such as Véronique Hivon.

Pogo, you are right about recycling; it is still a mess, despite efforts by Projet Montréal. We have to separate recycables, compostables and actual rubbish, collected separately, but far too much of the reusable components still end up in landfills.

quizzical

lagatta i didn't see where you mentioned this here. what thread was it in??

my info came from another social media source.?

i would never think you wouldn't care in fact i envisioned you amongst the few out protesting this. and my apologies if my words in anyway implicated you.

it's a hard thing in my family with experiencing the colonial impact in a continual way. language is a huge barrier and source of anxiety when we visit. it took dad awhile even to realize hearing French or even English? with a French accent was a trigger. the self loathing cycle just kicks in.

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

quizzical wrote:

oh piss off ken.

why dont you go and say shit like this to the person who started the Avi Lewis Rachel Notley? thread or the no damn difference thread? both are bs baiting threads by your criteria.

seriously your either picking at me or pondering for our perceptions and posts. do you have an issue with women who are pissed and sick of the shit?

how dare you ask if i have anything better to do.?

just your attitude about how dare i critique QCs actions says it all imv.

I respect the fact that we've got different positionalities based on gender.? OK.? But nothing in this thread has anything to do with gender issues and I'd have posted every response to you here in exactly the same way if you had been male or non-binary. ?

Everybody here, I think, agrees with you that it is an injustice that the Inuit kids are being treated this way.? You have no reason to think the left in Quebec isn't fighting to change that. ?

I've taken issue with many other baiting threads on this board and will continue to do so.

It seems really important to you to see me as your oppressor and, as an individual, I've never been that.? My gender and sexual orientation has been historically oppressive and continues often to oppress-I own that and work to change that constantly-but that doesn't make it oppressive simply for me to question why you've started this thread.? I question it simply because it looks to me, as an individual, that all this thread does is to do harm and divide the left when it needs to be working for unity.

You're doing a call-out when there's nothing to call out here.?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

By the logic of this thread, we'd have to conclude that B.C. isn't progressive, even with its century-long radical activist tradition, simply because most of the provincial governments in that century were NOT progressive. ?

You can't judge the political character of a place solely by which party forms government there, and nobody has actually CLAIMED that Quebec has had nothing but progressive governance.? Babblers have been denouncing the PQ, the last party to form anything close to a progressive government(the first Levesque ministry)since it drank the neoliberal koolaid in the Eighties.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

By the logic of this thread, we'd have to conclude that B.C. isn't progressive, even with its century-long radical activist tradition, simply because most of the provincial governments in that century were NOT progressive.?

You seem to be missing the not so subtle differences in regions of provinces. The coast of BC has a long history of progressive politics especially Vancouver Island and its Dependencies. The Interior especially the Okanagan has a long history of being a right wing bastion with overtly racist municipalities and Socred/Reform/Conservative politicians. Quebec as I understand it is similar in that some regions were strong Union National and are now where the Conservatives do well.

BC is not a progressive province if you look at the last twenty years under the Howe Street Liberals.

lagatta4

That is true, and there are similar differences between regions in Québec, and I'm sure we could find such differences elsewhere. Other than Québec, I'm most familiar with eastern Ontario.

WWWTT

Same goes for Ontario. Toronto/Hamilton have been regarded as the somewhat more progressive regions(among others)?This is why the municipal regional governments have been attacked by Mike Harris ?then followed by Ford conservative governments.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

By the logic of this thread, we'd have to conclude that B.C. isn't progressive, even with its century-long radical activist tradition, simply because most of the provincial governments in that century were NOT progressive.?

You seem to be missing the not so subtle differences in regions of provinces. The coast of BC has a long history of progressive politics especially Vancouver Island and its Dependencies. The Interior especially the Okanagan has a long history of being a right wing bastion with overtly racist municipalities and Socred/Reform/Conservative politicians. Quebec as I understand it is similar in that some regions were strong Union National and are now where the Conservatives do well.

BC is not a progressive province if you look at the last twenty years under the Howe Street Liberals.

What I'm saying is that we can't judge the overall progressiveness of a jurisdiction solely by the character of its ruling party.? Every Quebec government other than the 1961-66 Lesage "Quiet Revolution" government and then the 1976-81 PQ government has been slightly right-of-center at best and troglodytic at worst.? Every B.C. provincial government OTHER than the 72-75 NDP government has been bland austerity "center-right" at best and reactionary at worst.? Neither of these statements discredits the vibrant Left tradition each hosts-it simply means that neither(and this also goes for Ontario and Saskatchewan, and pretty much every OTHER anglophone province ) can be considered Utopia. ?

And it means that no area of Canada shou